http://www-personal.une.edu.au/~tdawson/turk_woman.html
http://www.mirror.org/greg.roberts/
http://www.ee.bilkent.edu.tr/~history/topkapi1.html
http://www.art-arena.com/Min.html
http://www.7cs.com/midage/persian.htm
http://www.youngartists.com/mphatouf.htm
http://www.havenonline.com/moas/northstar/vol1no1/Gwazcoat.htm
http://www.mindspring.com/~whill
>also, the fabric doesn't quite reach shoulder to ankle - more like mid calf. but if i recall correctly, didn't ghwazees fall somewhere between knee and ankle?
Sometimes. :)
>now, i know that the coat is named after the middle eastern, late period dancers (and there's some nice documentation, too!). has it ever shown up anywhere else?
The basic design is the same throughout the Middle East. Assyrian coats from BC have a very similar cut to them, although, in the main, they resemble Mongal coats a little more, I think.
> i've heard it referred to as a turkish coat, but all the pics i've seen of *that* (like in the folkways pattern) look completely different- very loose, as opposed to fitted. i'm assuming that's a mistaken association.
Yes, and in an odd way, too.
What happened is this: Most Westerners got their first look at
these coats though the Orientalists' paintings of them, and their wearers. Since the dancers in question were the only women ever seen in them, the outfits came, in western minds, to be associated with the outfit, thus tying the name "Ghawazee" to it. I can only imagine what the various people of the Middle East came to think of this particular bastardization of their native clothing.
I must hasten to add that this is, however, a 20th century
occurrence -- all the various travelers tales I've read even give the
outfits no particular name or mention that they are the indoor dress of the "proper" women, which is 100% true, so far as I know.
As far as the fit, there is quite a bit of evidence that
tightly-fitted versions are period. I particularly recall one of Nicolay's drawings, which has the women in as tight a coat as any you'd see on a dancer. However, it is also true that the later you get, the tighter the outfits seem to get.
>did ghwazee dancers ever travel?
Yes. But not in the timeframe I think you're thinking about.
>my persona, if you're wondering, is a late late period (adopted) gypsy,
originally from ireland. at this point i've traveled most of the way through the isles and western europe - france, spain, italy... and was wondering if the middle east would be too far out of my way?
That much travel in one lifetime would be unusual for a Rom.
Although nomadic, getting from Europe to the Middle East, or vice versa, was not a Sunday ride. And unlike, say, the Crusades, you'd be travelling rather slowly, and with a group of possibly even slower persons, including elderly and children. Some Rom did travel with amazing haste, but that was as much a factor of their need to move on before they wore out their welcome than anything else. It's not an easy life, and most Rom would bloody well rather sit in one spot than hike all over the freakin' continent, truth be told.
Hmmm...what research have you done here?
----Asim
>The length of the Ghwazee coat was a statement of wealth. A long Coat meant more money.
I'd _really_ love a source onthis -- I've heard this comment a
number of times, from various folks. At the same time, this length issue is not relected in the homes of the various people we see. Since the yelek/anteri is a bog-standard outfit, worn by every women in Ottoman lands, I would have expected by now to have run across some mention of length, a law regulating length, or the sort. Nothing.
but, hey, I can't find anyone to explain how the heck anyone in the Middle East measured and cut fabric, either, so this all may mean nothing. :)
> The Ghwazee Dancers (Public dancers in Arabic) were around since there has been public entertainment.
Hmph. Have to disagree there. The word Ghawazee translates into "Invaders of the Heart", as is pointing out in _Serpent of the Nile_. I'm beginning to think it's a post-period use, as well -- there's records of the Ghawazee in-period, but as Sinti, which is the branch of travelers (aka "Gypsies") that the Ghawazee are descended from. Their lineage is Indian, of course -- and they came to Egypt from Syria, and came there from an extended stay in Kurdistan, as pointed out by the non-deceased Patriarch of the Mazzin family in the video _The Romany Trail_.
However, they were indeed first pulled from India as entertainers, to amuse the common folk of Southern Persia around 5th Century AD. But they are very not-native.This is one of those delicate subjects prone to conflagration, but as someone who has studied Middle Eastern culture and costume for over 15 years I feel I must make a few comments.
There were indeed a group of Egyptian dancers called ghawazee, described by 18th and 19th century Orientalists. All the documentation we have about these dancers comes from this period, and there is no factual evidence of their presence before 1600 in the Middle East. Most of the usual documentation commonly cited in the SCA is misinterpretation of 18th paintings, unreliable written sources, "oral history" and plain fabrication.
The infamous "ghawazee/turkish coat" is also an example of this. This coat is usually represented as closely fitting, knee length with a flared skirt, hanging sleeves and a low neckline. Well, this is indeed a period kaftan-from the 18th century. Contrary to common belief fashion in the Middle East did not remain static-Turkish clothing changed greatly after the 16th century, developing these features by the early 18th century, when it was extensively recorded by large numbers of European travellers and artists in the Middle East. These 18th century styles have become the (quite erroneous) Western idea of "traditional dress" in the Middle East, perpetuated by Hollywood and clothing pattern manufacturers. A large part of the documentation problem is the scarcity of available resources, another is that an awful lot of pictorial sources are mislabelled and misdated, so tracking down accurate period clothing is daunting and difficult, but not impossible.
Dancing was a common art form in the Middle East, practiced by every level of society and both genders. There were also professional dancers, but their dress was the same as the culture of the time. Better paid entertainers could of course afford better fabrics and finer accessories, but the cut of the clothing stayed the same. Late period period Turkish caftans (coats; also called entari) were tailored to the body but not tightly fitting, with a high round neckline and long closely fitting sleeves, sometimes with a turned-back cuff. The caftan was usually ankle length. Usually worn with this was a garment called a hirka, of the same cut as the caftan but shorter, between hip and knee length. the hirka was worn either over the caftan or under it, in which case the caftan was worn only partly buttoned to show off the expensive fabric of the hirka. The usual undergarments (shirt, trousers) and accessories (belt, veil) were worn with these coats.
I have written an overview of Turkish clothing (with patterns and cutting diagrams), if anyone is interested please contact me privately. Please note it is not my intention to start an arguement about this on this list (nor will I be drawn into one privately) I am merely presenting the results of my research into this area.
Giles
http://www.mirror.org/greg.roberts/
http://www.ee.bilkent.edu.tr/~history/topkapi1.html
http://www.art-arena.com/Min.html
http://www.7cs.com/midage/persian.htm
http://www.youngartists.com/mphatouf.htm
http://www.havenonline.com/moas/northstar/vol1no1/Gwazcoat.htm
http://www.mindspring.com/~whill
>also, the fabric doesn't quite reach shoulder to ankle - more like mid calf. but if i recall correctly, didn't ghwazees fall somewhere between knee and ankle?
Sometimes. :)
>now, i know that the coat is named after the middle eastern, late period dancers (and there's some nice documentation, too!). has it ever shown up anywhere else?
The basic design is the same throughout the Middle East. Assyrian coats from BC have a very similar cut to them, although, in the main, they resemble Mongal coats a little more, I think.
> i've heard it referred to as a turkish coat, but all the pics i've seen of *that* (like in the folkways pattern) look completely different- very loose, as opposed to fitted. i'm assuming that's a mistaken association.
Yes, and in an odd way, too.
What happened is this: Most Westerners got their first look at
these coats though the Orientalists' paintings of them, and their wearers. Since the dancers in question were the only women ever seen in them, the outfits came, in western minds, to be associated with the outfit, thus tying the name "Ghawazee" to it. I can only imagine what the various people of the Middle East came to think of this particular bastardization of their native clothing.
I must hasten to add that this is, however, a 20th century
occurrence -- all the various travelers tales I've read even give the
outfits no particular name or mention that they are the indoor dress of the "proper" women, which is 100% true, so far as I know.
As far as the fit, there is quite a bit of evidence that
tightly-fitted versions are period. I particularly recall one of Nicolay's drawings, which has the women in as tight a coat as any you'd see on a dancer. However, it is also true that the later you get, the tighter the outfits seem to get.
>did ghwazee dancers ever travel?
Yes. But not in the timeframe I think you're thinking about.
>my persona, if you're wondering, is a late late period (adopted) gypsy,
originally from ireland. at this point i've traveled most of the way through the isles and western europe - france, spain, italy... and was wondering if the middle east would be too far out of my way?
That much travel in one lifetime would be unusual for a Rom.
Although nomadic, getting from Europe to the Middle East, or vice versa, was not a Sunday ride. And unlike, say, the Crusades, you'd be travelling rather slowly, and with a group of possibly even slower persons, including elderly and children. Some Rom did travel with amazing haste, but that was as much a factor of their need to move on before they wore out their welcome than anything else. It's not an easy life, and most Rom would bloody well rather sit in one spot than hike all over the freakin' continent, truth be told.
Hmmm...what research have you done here?
----Asim
>The length of the Ghwazee coat was a statement of wealth. A long Coat meant more money.
I'd _really_ love a source onthis -- I've heard this comment a
number of times, from various folks. At the same time, this length issue is not relected in the homes of the various people we see. Since the yelek/anteri is a bog-standard outfit, worn by every women in Ottoman lands, I would have expected by now to have run across some mention of length, a law regulating length, or the sort. Nothing.
but, hey, I can't find anyone to explain how the heck anyone in the Middle East measured and cut fabric, either, so this all may mean nothing. :)
> The Ghwazee Dancers (Public dancers in Arabic) were around since there has been public entertainment.
Hmph. Have to disagree there. The word Ghawazee translates into "Invaders of the Heart", as is pointing out in _Serpent of the Nile_. I'm beginning to think it's a post-period use, as well -- there's records of the Ghawazee in-period, but as Sinti, which is the branch of travelers (aka "Gypsies") that the Ghawazee are descended from. Their lineage is Indian, of course -- and they came to Egypt from Syria, and came there from an extended stay in Kurdistan, as pointed out by the non-deceased Patriarch of the Mazzin family in the video _The Romany Trail_.
However, they were indeed first pulled from India as entertainers, to amuse the common folk of Southern Persia around 5th Century AD. But they are very not-native.This is one of those delicate subjects prone to conflagration, but as someone who has studied Middle Eastern culture and costume for over 15 years I feel I must make a few comments.
There were indeed a group of Egyptian dancers called ghawazee, described by 18th and 19th century Orientalists. All the documentation we have about these dancers comes from this period, and there is no factual evidence of their presence before 1600 in the Middle East. Most of the usual documentation commonly cited in the SCA is misinterpretation of 18th paintings, unreliable written sources, "oral history" and plain fabrication.
The infamous "ghawazee/turkish coat" is also an example of this. This coat is usually represented as closely fitting, knee length with a flared skirt, hanging sleeves and a low neckline. Well, this is indeed a period kaftan-from the 18th century. Contrary to common belief fashion in the Middle East did not remain static-Turkish clothing changed greatly after the 16th century, developing these features by the early 18th century, when it was extensively recorded by large numbers of European travellers and artists in the Middle East. These 18th century styles have become the (quite erroneous) Western idea of "traditional dress" in the Middle East, perpetuated by Hollywood and clothing pattern manufacturers. A large part of the documentation problem is the scarcity of available resources, another is that an awful lot of pictorial sources are mislabelled and misdated, so tracking down accurate period clothing is daunting and difficult, but not impossible.
Dancing was a common art form in the Middle East, practiced by every level of society and both genders. There were also professional dancers, but their dress was the same as the culture of the time. Better paid entertainers could of course afford better fabrics and finer accessories, but the cut of the clothing stayed the same. Late period period Turkish caftans (coats; also called entari) were tailored to the body but not tightly fitting, with a high round neckline and long closely fitting sleeves, sometimes with a turned-back cuff. The caftan was usually ankle length. Usually worn with this was a garment called a hirka, of the same cut as the caftan but shorter, between hip and knee length. the hirka was worn either over the caftan or under it, in which case the caftan was worn only partly buttoned to show off the expensive fabric of the hirka. The usual undergarments (shirt, trousers) and accessories (belt, veil) were worn with these coats.
I have written an overview of Turkish clothing (with patterns and cutting diagrams), if anyone is interested please contact me privately. Please note it is not my intention to start an arguement about this on this list (nor will I be drawn into one privately) I am merely presenting the results of my research into this area.
Giles